language learning?

[squiggyflop]

ok so when i was a kid at school they decided that i wasnt able to learn a second language... i have a few learning disabilitys, dyslexia included... i started watching movies with subtitles when i was a kid in an effert to improve my reading. i bagan to rent all kinds of movies but the only ones that were kid friendly that could be found with subtitles were in japanese.. (when i say kid friendly i mean that they arent the complicated somewhat boring storylines you see in some foreign movies) these movies forced me to learn to read better and faster so that i could follow the movie... about a year ago i ordered a free demo from rosetta stone (just for fun) the demo would teach you some basics from each language then test you and give you a score in each language. i failed miseribly at almost every language... i just couldnt remember anything and i couldnt tell where the words would begin and end... that is until i got to the japanese test... before i got the demo i didnt even know a single phrase in japanese (or atleast i didnt think i did) it was like my subconscious brain just knew the answers i blazed through the lessen... i was a bit confused as to how i could learn that fast when i was advised against taking languages in school because my brain"just wasnt made for languages" as the teacher said.. so my dad was suprised and decided to buy me the rosetta stone software in japanese... i found i hit something of a block at some point during the japanese 1 of rosetta stone. so i got something called instant immersion which helped but it still wasnt enough, i needed some real teaching and i decided that i wasnt going to get by teaching myself... so this past summer i went to concordia language villages mori no ike. its an immersion program where you go to a camp and have some really intensive learning.. (4 weeks there gets you a highschool language credit that would have taken you a whole school year to recieve) it was difficult because the teachers dont speak to you in english.. you can ask them somthing in english but all you will hear is japanese and they will sort of mime it and ask you to repeat... one of the hardest parts for me was the food... they serve the food of the country of the language you chose (they have villages for almost every language that i can think of) so there was miso soup and fish and vegetables served at almost every meal including breakfast.. i hate all of those foods by the way... by the time camp was over i couldnt figure out how to hold a fork, it felt so barbaric to stab my food with a fork after i had been using hashi (chopsticks) for 2 weeks. i didnt realize how much i had learned in camp until i came home and put on a movie and didnt realize until 10 minutes in that the subtitles werent on.. i wish i could go back to camp but there is no adult program for japanese at concordia villages...:stress: (they have adult programs for quite a few of the other languages why dont they have one for japanese!) so im not sure how im going to continue my learning... so who else likes to try and learn languages? and how did you learn them? do you have a stratagy that you think is unique?
do any of you have an idea on how i can continue my learning (without leaving the country... i cant afford that yet$$)

[Lamb]

ok so when i was a kid at school they decided that i wasnt able to learn a second language... i have a few learning disabilitys, dyslexia included... (...) i was advised against taking languages in school because my brain"just wasnt made for languages" as the teacher said..

That sort of thing makes me mad, both as a teacher and as a person who has always been learning and actively using foreign languages. :pissed: :irked: So just because you have dyslexia you are not supposed to be able to learn a language??? For Pete's sake. How on earth did you learn your first language then??
First off: you need a more detailed analysis of your abilities and possibilities than the comment of a -possibly very ignorant- schoolteacher. Get thee to an education counsellor, a psychologist, or a professional dealing with learning disabilities.
From what you have described it seems to me that you could do well with methods not based on writing. You may have difficulty with phonetic segmentation (you find it difficult to recognize where one word or syllable ends and the other begins), but that only means that your brain is not made for traditional and conservative methodology! It doesn't mean that your brain is not made for languages!
If the immersion program worked so well, look for continuing education programs offered by colleges. Some of them offer immersion programs. Or simply look for an education counsellor and ask, ask, ask for info! If you really want to learn a foreign language, you simply have to learn which methods work for you and which ones don't. You need someone who knows a bit about dyslexia for that. But don't give up, it is not a hopeless business at all!

[prosperina]

Wow, as a teacher those remarks make me so angry! That's so wrong to tell a student that! There are people with dyslexia that learn foreign languages!

You might also consider summer school classes at your local university. I say summer school because it's a shorter time and you often meet for longer, and you can concentrate just on that class. Many college level foreign language classes use the communicative approach to language learning. Meaning they speak very little English to you, so you might do some exploring on how the language is taught before you sign up for the class, or shoot the teacher an email before class starts and let him or her know about your learning style. To be honest, they will probably love you because most students your age don't have the patience (or often the capacity) to learn that way. Many of my students in French want lots of English spoken to them--even when I mime it out and speak with cognates they *still* give me blank looks. So the fact that you are able to learn Japanese this way, tells me (and I am only somewhat versed in language learning methodologies) that your brain is VERY well suited to learning a foreign language. Keep it up!

ETA: Strategies: Get as much authentic input as you can: music, movies, TV, etc. You may even be able to watch some Japanese news programs online, or listen to radio. Read about Japanese culture and history. Practice grammar (or character writing or whatever) in your free time, but make sure you don't learn it wrong because if you cement mistakes it's heck to unlearn them.

[squiggyflop]

That sort of thing makes me mad, both as a teacher and as a person who has always been learning and actively using foreign languages. :pissed: :irked: So just because you have dyslexia you are not supposed to be able to learn a language??? For Pete's sake. How on earth did you learn your first language then??
First off: you need a more detailed analysis of your abilities and possibilities than the comment of a -possibly very ignorant- schoolteacher. Get thee to an education counsellor, a psychologist, or a professional dealing with learning disabilities.
From what you have described it seems to me that you could do well with methods not based on writing. You may have difficulty with phonetic segmentation (you find it difficult to recognize where one word or syllable ends and the other begins), but that only means that your brain is not made for traditional and conservative methodology! It doesn't mean that your brain is not made for languages!
If the immersion program worked so well, look for continuing education programs offered by colleges. Some of them offer immersion programs. Or simply look for an education counsellor and ask, ask, ask for info! If you really want to learn a foreign language, you simply have to learn which methods work for you and which ones don't. You need someone who knows a bit about dyslexia for that. But don't give up, it is not a hopeless business at all!
its not just dyslexia ive got other ones too... anyway i did go and get evaluated... apparently there are different IQs that they score you in and then they average them together. my reading and writing was down dangerously close to the retarded levels but my verbal iq was very very high like mensa high... when they averaged it out i was still in the high above average area so i know im not stupid. (ofcourse i feel very stupid around my father who is absolutly brilliant) the doctor said that if i started treatment for my adhd i might have scored alot higher. i find that i learn anything better if its a game the more competitive the better (adhd, anything that can keep my attention for more than 5 minutes).. and i also find that i need to see the thing hear about the thing and sometimes even touch/taste/smell it to remember things... i cant learn by taking notes infact i actually do worse if i take notes in a class. i was thinking that berlitz might be good for me, they have a few locations here in ct. i think uconn might have a japanese program but to pass you have to become proficiant in hiragana and katakana and memorize like 100 kanji... ive never been good at "memorizing" things and ive already found out how bad i am at hiragana... i do try to practice it a bit every now and then but i can only remember no, to, mi and e. and i only remember to, mi and e because my name at concordia was tomie and i had to write it on all my papers.

[mira-chan]

That's sttrange about the advice against languages. The day I was diagnosed with dyslexia was also the day I was told I had an aptitude for languages. I have problems with reading/writing part of european languages (anything that uses that one sound per letter system) but if I immerse to the hearing and speaking I pick it up fast.

squiggyflop, are you in college? Many colleges have travel scholarships. I went to study in Japan in an immertion program that way free. You can go for up to a year on such a grant.

I am for the most part self taught in Japanese. I'm currently working on building up my vocabulary and kanji memorization. I do a lot of Japanese manga reading. Most have furigana next to the kanji so that helps for the kanji I don't know yet and with repetition in the text I learn them. Plus it's a lot more fun to read manga than text book text.

I memorized hirakana and katakana byt writing it over and over on notes margins in classes (productive doodling). I also learned "Iroha" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha) which is a classical poem which uses every Hiragana character in it once, inluding two that are no longer in use.

I have image memory, as opposed to for exampe word memory, so I see kanji and kana is pictures instea do letters, that makes them easier to rememeber. I don't know how this will help if you have another memory type. The repetitive writing may help in seeing and experiencing part.

[squiggyflop]

That's sttrange about the advice against languages. The day I was diagnosed with dyslexia was also the day I was told I had an aptitude for languages. I have problems with reading/writing part of european languages (anything that uses that one sound per letter system) but if I immerse to the hearing and speaking I pick it up fast.

squiggyflop, are you in college? Many colleges have travel scholarships. I went to study in Japan in an immertion program that way free. You can go for up to a year on such a grant.

I am for the most part self taught in Japanese. I'm currently working on building up my vocabulary and kanji memorization. I do a lot of Japanese manga reading. Most have furigana next to the kanji so that helps for the kanji I don't know yet and with repetition in the text I learn them. Plus it's a lot more fun to read manga than text book text.

I memorized hirakana and katakana byt writing it over and over on notes margins in classes (productive doodling). I also learned "Iroha" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha) which is a classical poem which uses every Hiragana character in it once, inluding two that are no longer in use.

I have image memory, as opposed to for exampe word memory, so I see kanji and kana is pictures instea do letters, that makes them easier to rememeber. I don't know how this will help if you have another memory type. The repetitive writing may help in seeing and experiencing part.
im still in community college so no immersion programs. im afraid that i think my memory is a bit different... i see symbols but i have trouble remembering what souds they make and i see them flipped upside down and sideways and backwards... i dont even remember what english letters make what sounds sometimes.. i also sometimes see whole sentances out of order or try to read the page right to left.... i have trouble putting anything in order which is why ive never truely mastered english grammer. (i speak a little funny sometimes too) i dont think i have the patience or attention span for repetttitive writing. i learn mostly when i hear things and see objects or actions... im really bad with symbols of any kind... repettitive writing has never tought me anything i need to learn with sound and context... i learned english letters by learning a new word every week (three letter words) the words would already have 2 letters that i knew and added a new letter.... like i knew at and the teacher would add a C to the begginning and say cat over and over... it has to be someone else saying it or i wont remember. if the teacher had just had us study the individual letters i dont think i would have ever learned to read... perhaps is there a text book that teaches using this method?


oh and i never meant for this thread to be about my LD problems i kinda just wanted to hear what everyone was studying and how they were doing it...
so what are you all studying and why and how?

[Lamb]

i kinda just wanted to hear what everyone was studying and how they were doing it...
so what are you all studying and why and how?

My first language is Hungarian, I am quite proficcient in German and English, itermediate in Latin (still working at it!), beginner in French. I want to learn Italian in the near future.
I do best with old-fashioned methods, grammar drills, and lots and lots of reading. In fact, I would never have been admitted to an English program had I not read so much in English since I was 10. (I had three English classes a week for 7 years, with some extras in my last year at high school.

[Pierre]

My first languages are English, French, and Spanish. English and French (once I learned the basics by hearing) I learned from all sorts of reading material, including some of the same books in both languages. Spanish I didn't learn to speak when I was a kid, I learned only to hear, when my mother was on the phone, and to read a little. As I learned English and French by reading, I had (and may still have) some eye pronunciations, such as "fin it" for "finite" and saying "oignons" the same whether it means "in the garlic family" or "what we do with oil". (The AF now accepts the spelling "ognons" for the former.)

German is the first language I'm not a native hearer of. I learned it from a Berlitz book when I was still figuring out the French "u" (which is like the German "ü"). Russian is next; my first exposure (that I remember) was a book called You Can Learn Russian. I speak German well enough to have made up a few tonguetwisters and Russian well enough to carry on a long email conversation with a girl in Russia.

I learned Hebrew and Greek by reading the Bible in those languages. I got some help with the pronunciation from Greeks in college and some math profs, so my pronunciation sounds like modern Greek even though the words are ancient.

I attend a Hispanic church and recently asked to preach a sermon. The pastor said I don't have enough vocabulary and should speak in English and have someone translate. He overlooked that (1) he's the fastest talker among us, whereas my mom is from El Salvador and talks a bit slowly; (2) I'm an aspie and often think nonverbally, and it takes me time to translate into any language.

I prefer learning a language by comparing a written text with the same text in a language I already know. If I don't see it written, I sometimes have problems. There's a song we sing at Havdala which, unlike the hymns, I've never seen written, and even after singing it a hundred times, I'm still not sure how it begins (something like "Al comenza la semana", but I know that's not right). I just last night figured out "Enlacemos nuestras manos", which I thought was "En las hemos" or "En el hacemos", neither of which makes sense.

[prosperina]

Pierre, I didn't know that about the word oignons and the other spelling. Good to know, and interesting. I think many people have a problem with the pronunciation of that word since it does not follow expected French rules of pronunciation. And ognons is an earlier spelling, so the purists should really stop whining.

Every speaker of Greek I've come across has told me that ancient Greek is *very* different from modern Greek. I wonder if you'll have problems as you start to learn the modern language, or if it'll help you.

I too have to see something written, or I can't get it.

To the OP, I'd work on your memorization skills first. I hate to be discouraging, but it can be near impossible to truly learn a foreign language without memorizing a good deal--whether that is verbal or written memorization. I think some people do better when they can memorize chunks of speech first, and worry about writing later. I also think writing memorized language and speaking it require two different skills; you may be better at the latter.

ETA: Did a bit of research on the oignons and ognons thing, and it doesn't look like the latter spelling has caught on much at all, at least not in France (in Canada they do their own thing), which would explain why I haven't, in over 12 years of studying the language ever seen that spelling. In fact, according to the NY Times the AF talked about these changes in the 90s....but it doesn't look like they've been fully implemented. None of the textbooks I've ever taught from have that alternative spelling, nor does the Petit Robert. I'm not calling anyone wrong, I'm just sharing. :) /language geekery finished.

[Pierre]

My impression of the difference between ancient (Koine) and modern Greek is that it's like King James (1611 edition - the usual text available today has been somewhat modernized) and modern English. I once compared John 3:16 and only about 1/8 of it was different, and I can understand a fair bit of Εκδοσεις Επιλογες (the Greek equivalent of Reader's Digest). Of course my comprehension depends on what is being talked about - I'd get lost reading about Turkish wines, but embryonic development is easy for me.

Here's a phrase from the article, with ancient for comparison:
Δευτερη διαιρεση του ωαριου λιγες ωρες μετα τη γονιμοποιηση του.
Δευτερα διαιρεσις του ωαριου ολιγαι ωραι μετα την γονιμοποιησιν αυτου.
Second division of the ovum a few hours after its fertilization.
That's from memory, and of course no ancient Greek saw a human ovum under a microscope, but he'd understand ωαριον as "tiny egg". For someone who can transform French words into the equivalent Spanish in my head, it's easy. But drop me in Tsakonia and it'll take me several days to make sense of the language (it's descended from one of the other ancient dialects, not the mostly-Attic Koine).

[Masara]

I remember the oignons/ognons thing from some years back. It was announced with a lot of pomp but I've never seen it written outside of articles about the spelling changes. But then I'm in France and it will probably take a couple of hundred years before any changes are made.;)

I've been reading up on foreign language learning and dyslexia recently (had an interesting training day a month or so back) most of what I have read says that it is generally more difficult (but not impossible) for people with dyslexia to learn a new language, but so much depends on the individual person and their own particular form of dyslexia. (depending on how much of a "language processing" problem the person has)
What came out most strongly was the need for a lot of motivation and a teaching technique that took dyslexia into account (methods using very explicit explanations and multi-sensory teaching seemed to be the best)

As always I'm very interested in any suggestions from the language teachers/learners here

[maighdean]

My mother tongue is english but a year ago I spent a couple of weeks teaching myself French and right away began reading everything I could in French. This was easy because a local used bookstore has a great language section with shelves of classic French literature. I have taken three years of Latin and next year will be taking Hebrew weekly. I have lots of books to learn Russian but I am finding that it is very difficult for me, so I am going to see about a Rosetta Stone program or a class. I do best with books because I read so much in English that I can anticipate what a sentence is in a foreign tongue might be, and that is how I learn idioms and vocabulary. I have XM radio to listen to French music as well as www.rfi.fr (http://www.rfi.fr) to listen to the radio announcements. This summer I am dong an immersion program in Tours to refine my conversation skills.

[TheSpottedCow]

I am taking French now, the second semester of an intro level class at a community college.

I've become a lot more interested in learning Spanish, though. I am still doing my best at French, of course, to pass the class. It sounds weird but I plan to move to Montreal after college, so I figure I will learn to speak French anyway, very fast by being immersed in it. I KNOW I will probably not live in a Spanish speaking country any time in the near future at least, although I would like to, so I feel like I should dedicate most of my time to learning spanish instead of French.

For Spanish I bought my colleges Spanish Text book for the two intro classes, a few work books from Amazon.com, ordered the online subscription to Rosetta Stone which I have been doing daily, and I watch Spanish TV and listen to Spanish radio as much as possible. Obviously they don't always speak in proper spanish, but I think it's good to get an idea of how natives speak and the accent, and I do think it's increased my understanding of spanish by a lot in only a few weeks. I genuinely spend several hours a day listening to Spanish on TV and radio. Each time I complete a Lesson in Rosetta stone or a chapter in the book I find myself understanding the TV and radio more and more, and that reinforces what I've learned.
The only thing I could use more of is the speaking aspect, but I've started just irritating my family by speaking to them in spanish anyway for practice, haha.

[mira-chan]

Squiggyflop, I hope you find the perfect study materials for you then. :grinhappy: I speak funny sometimes too, and my grammar isn't that great either.

My naive language is Russian, I'm fluent in it but a bit slow on the reading and very rusty on the writing. My second language is English and that was learned by immertion. I know English better now that I know Russian.

I studied Spanish in school but have forgottne most of it due to lack of use. I used to be able to watch TV in that. I really should relearn it. I can get access to free spanish rosetta stone through the library (better choice than buying it, expensive!). They don't have many languages there but they have the msot common ones so if you are planning to get a Rosetta stone check if you library has a free online version available.

I studied Japanese on my own for a few years then took 5 months of classes that focused on conversation (GEOS language school) and then a month immertion program in Kyoto, Japan. (Ritsumeikan University) I'm at about intermediate level in this but lacking in vocabulary and kanji, both of which I'm working on currently. I am much better at understanding it. I can watch TV in it without much problem.

In the fall I took a semester if Chinese (Mandarin). I'll continue that when I have time again. That was fun too.

Previous language thread. (http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showthread.php?t=170)

[squiggyflop]

Squiggyflop, I hope you find the perfect study materials for you then. :grinhappy: I speak funny sometimes too, and my grammar isn't that great either.

My naive language is Russian, I'm fluent in it but a bit slow on the reading and very rusty on the writing. My second language is English and that was learned by immertion. I know English better now that I know Russian.

I studied Spanish in school but have forgottne most of it due to lack of use. I used to be able to watch TV in that. I really should relearn it. I can get access to free spanish rosetta stone through the library (better choice than buying it, expensive!). They don't have many languages there but they have the msot common ones so if you are planning to get a Rosetta stone check if you library has a free online version available.

I studied Japanese on my own for a few years then took 5 months of classes that focused on conversation (GEOS language school) and then a month immertion program in Kyoto, Japan. (Ritsumeikan University) I'm at about intermediate level in this but lacking in vocabulary and kanji, both of which I'm working on currently. I am much better at understanding it. I can watch TV in it without much problem.

In the fall I took a semester if Chinese (Mandarin). I'll continue that when I have time again. That was fun too.

Previous language thread. (http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showthread.php?t=170)
the geos site seems to only offer english... can you give a link to the japanese course??

[getoffmyskittle]

My first language is Hungarian, I am quite proficcient in German and English, itermediate in Latin (still working at it!), beginner in French. I want to learn Italian in the near future.
I do best with old-fashioned methods, grammar drills, and lots and lots of reading. In fact, I would never have been admitted to an English program had I not read so much in English since I was 10. (I had three English classes a week for 7 years, with some extras in my last year at high school.

Hungarian! I NEVER would have even come close to guessing that English isn't your first language!

My first language is English. I am taking Spanish in school. I used to be able to both understand other people and make myself understood in French but have forgotten almost all of it. I am not very good at either now. :drool: